How can we empower girls in computing? Video
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Meg
Hello world and welcome to the podcast for educators passionate about computing and digital making. I'm Meg Wang, the editor of the Hello World magazine, and this is the second of our three podcast episodes released to accompany the recent issue of the Hello World magazine exploring digital literacy, asking what we actually mean by that term and how we can best teacher skills young people need to use digital technologies effectively, safely and responsibly in the classroom.
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Meg
A key part of digital literacy is ensuring that all learners, regardless of their background or gender, have equal opportunities to develop computing skills and confidence in using technology. And for this episode, the Raspberry Pi Foundation's Chief Learning Officer, Rachel Arthur, sits down with two guests to discuss how to empower and encourage girls in computing. Rachel is joined by Becky Patel from Tech She Can, a UK based charity dedicated to increasing the representation of women in technology.
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Meg
And Doctor Jessica Hamer, a research associate at King's College London School of Education and author of the Subject Choice, Attainment and Representation and Computing Project Arcade The Scary Report. I hope you enjoyed this conversation and as always, please do let us know your thoughts on email where podcast at hello world.cc.
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Rachel
Let's just jump straight into this conversation. We know that there is a big issue with a number of girls studying computer science in England. When we look at the data around GCSE uptake, only 22% of entrants are from female students. What do you think contributes most to the gender gap in computer science?
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Jess
Oh, that's a really tough question. I don't think it's AA1 stop solution issue. There are so many factors that influence the choices and the decision making that young people make when it comes to subject choice. But I think particularly in computing, there's some think around the curriculum and how appealing it is to young people. So I think that's one important factor, but also things like the understanding around what doors it can open for the young person.
00:02:03:21 - 00:02:14:03
Jess
The role of the parents and carers and families, and the role models that exist out there for young people, there are so many different factors.
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Rachel
And if it were a simple way to fix it by now, right? Exactly, yeah. We won't be where we are. So now, I think it's definitely a multi-faceted problem. And I know that your researchers echoed that as well. Becky, what for you is the biggest contributor to the perception and gender gap?
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Becky
So I definitely agree with Jess that it's not a singular thing, but in particular for girls. Girls tend to gravitate towards roles which do good for the world or help people. So statistically, girls, when they're looking at what my next step is after school will want to be things like doctors, nurses, teachers, childcare, vets, work with animals, generally work in sustainability.
00:02:55:14 - 00:03:25:12
Becky
The issue with younger students as they move their way through school is they don't see how technology relates to that. So they see technology as computers and coding, and they don't see how tech relates to them. And they're individual passions and hobbies. So you'd have people, boys and girls, that love sports, that love animals, that love helping people, that love art, that of dance, that love ballet, whatever it is that they love, there will almost certainly be a connection between that and the future world of technology.
00:03:25:17 - 00:03:46:13
Becky
And what we need to do is bridge that gap and show them that. So you're not saying that in order to work in tech, you've got to believe what the children say to me, a geeky hacker in someone's basement stealing money, and this is what they draw. This is what they see from the movies, from Marvel movies, etc., what they think people are like, that work in technology, but actually there's people saving the planet.
00:03:46:13 - 00:04:03:22
Becky
There's people helping doctors, there's people helping in education. So a huge part for me, especially for girls, is showing them the breadth of tech careers that they could go into, but most importantly, how it relates to them as individuals on their own have hobbies and passions that they currently have, rather than thinking they have to change.
00:04:04:00 - 00:04:41:01
Jess
I completely agree, and I think, you know, talking to the, the young people in our, in our study, what we found was that actually girls, one of the, you know, the big factors that influence that decision was how useful they thought computing would be for their job in the future. And those girls that we interviewed that had chosen computer science, some of them wanted to go into jobs like theater and set design and they could explain the relevance of doing GCSE computer science to that future career.
00:04:41:01 - 00:04:53:17
Jess
And they could see that which says there's something around how we showcase the opportunities in a range of different sectors and job areas for young people.
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Rachel
That's so interesting. Just how early do you feel this gender gap starts from?
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Jess
So I think it does start young, and we know that young people have already formed their sort of stereotyped views around what jobs are for them or not for them. By the time they're sort of five, six years old. And that's not to say that things can't be changed as they go through the education system, and views be shifted slightly, but it also means that we need to make sure that we are engaging young people.
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Jess
You know, at a younger age. Definitely.
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Rachel
Yeah. I have a four year old and she's told me the other day that girls can't be doctors. So you can imagine how.
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Jess
Oh my.
00:05:36:19 - 00:05:45:13
Rachel
Goodness, that went down in my arms. But you wonder where it comes from. Where are these perceptions and these, you know, ideas about being a hacker in the basement when.
00:05:45:13 - 00:06:04:02
Becky
We come to career aspiration and career advice, I see them as very different. So lots of people, when we say we're going to go into a school to talk about careers and they'll say, what are you going into sixth form in GCSE? You going to talk to the older students? And I'll say, well, I see that more as career advice because older students are looking for what's my next step.
00:06:04:02 - 00:06:21:03
Becky
Where should I go now? What is an apprenticeship? What could I do at university? What am I qualified to go on and do? How much for that cost me? When we're talking about challenging stereotypes, particularly around gender, that's what's got to be done much earlier. Because when you ask a young child in reception, what do you want to be when you grow up?
00:06:21:03 - 00:06:41:06
Becky
And I've done this, they'll say anything from the moon, as one boy told me, to Santa to a unicorn. They have limitless ideas of what they can be, and then they grow through school and it drastically narrows. And they get to around age 1617. They have a very small opinion, if not, no idea what they can be. And we come in with careers advice and we try and broaden the out.
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Becky
So what the aim should be with career aspiration, particularly in the world of tech, is if you start early and you continuously talk to those students, show them relatable, while modules show them how broad tech is, they'll grow through school and their career aspirations will naturally narrow because they're all individuals with their own hobbies and passions. I always joke with the children and say, I can never be an astronaut because I'm travel sick driving.
00:07:05:21 - 00:07:24:17
Becky
So like there's there's things that just won't be for you, but you want them to get to 16, 17 and think, what's next for me and their their race, their gender, their socio economic background, their accent, all of that? Their sexuality does not affect that decision in any way. It should just be, what am I greater? Where should I go next?
00:07:24:18 - 00:07:45:11
Rachel
We did a big piece of research at Busby Pi Foundation between 2019 and 2022, and in that we found that girls interest in computing sees a decline when they move from primary to secondary. Now back in, I you've worked across both phases. Is there anything that you could suggest that we could do to help sustain that interest. So it's not lost in that transition?
00:07:45:13 - 00:08:08:21
Becky
I think what I would put it down to is when a child is at primary school, they have usually one or a couple of teachers that have to teach multiple subjects. But what's great about that is they very easily see Cross-curricular links. So primary teachers, because of flexibility in the timetable, can very easily do a computing and history lesson or we can it's raining.
00:08:08:21 - 00:08:45:03
Becky
So we're going to do instead of PE outside, we're going to do the iPads and we're going to use the iPad to do physical movement. And so it's much easier for a primary teacher to do those cross-curricular links. Then they move to secondary school, and they have the absolute privilege of having subjects specialists teach them, which is amazing because those people obviously have so much knowledge in that area, but it is much harder for many reasons, timetabling resources, for secondary school teachers to make cross-curricular increases easy because a history teacher can't go to computing and say, do you mind if I borrow the computing suite for a bit?
00:08:45:03 - 00:09:02:16
Becky
Or, and they have so much content to cover two that it's very hard to go off piste and cover something different. We do a lot of resources at tech. She can that history geography teachers can use. You can still spend five minutes at the end of the day saying, we've talked about global warming today. Let's look at some people working in really cool jobs doing global warming.
00:09:02:21 - 00:09:21:08
Becky
Just spend the last five minutes highlighting a couple of really cool viewmodels, and these clips and resources exist for you. So doing things like that have a transformational difference on the students saying, hold on like that, that looks great. That's this is just for my geography teachers talking to me about computing. You can make a huge difference doing that.
00:09:21:09 - 00:09:41:21
Rachel
It's so interesting, isn't it, because we know from the research that you've done just that actually predominantly it isn't, can be despite specialists always teaching computer science, especially at Key Stage three. What's interesting about that is why do we feel like teachers that, you know, it might be a trigger for teacher teaching. Can be.
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Becky
Confusing.
00:09:43:01 - 00:10:05:03
Rachel
Why why are teachers not then confident to make those links? And I think, you know, when you're nervous about. I've been very nervous at different points about topics I've had to teach maybe teach in outside your subject specialism. You cling to your curriculum, and you don't want to let it go. Jess, you've done work about what students perceive when you say the phrase computer scientist.
00:10:05:03 - 00:10:07:12
Rachel
Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
00:10:07:14 - 00:10:38:21
Jess
As part of our survey of around 5000 young people in secondary school, which is a huge, huge number of young people, we found, that actually young people are likely to see people working in computer science as smart as clever, and as academic. And if they themselves have taken GCSE computer science, they are more likely to consider themselves academic as well and put themselves into that bracket.
00:10:38:23 - 00:11:21:04
Jess
We also, as part of our research, asked them to name three famous faces in computing, and it was so interesting. Their response? The top ten people, five of which were all at tech entrepreneurs, all white men, all very frequently in the news and so on. Yeah. And sort of those alternative, those, role models, those famous, faces that are doing interesting, important work around things like climate change, social justice.
00:11:21:06 - 00:11:48:03
Jess
They, they didn't feature, we found that girls were three times more likely to suggest a female famous face. Wow. Yeah. Which says that. Then perhaps they're picking up on that sort of messaging, which is. Which is great. These old, you know, other role models, the non-tech pros. Yeah. They're all they're not no longer with us. They will, you know, deceased.
00:11:48:03 - 00:11:54:05
Jess
And so we need contemporary role models in this space, you know, for young people,
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Becky
Relatable.
00:11:55:06 - 00:11:56:14
Jess
And relatable.
00:11:56:14 - 00:12:24:24
Becky
Close in age to them. So yeah, we find when even when you show them incredibly successful women, which is amazing, but they might be later in their career, the students feel like that's too far away to be achievable and attainable. So when we bring in young, while models like just started apprenticeships or only around 5 to 6 years away from where they are, the impact on them and how they feel related to them and can follow in their footsteps is far greater.
00:12:24:24 - 00:12:37:23
Becky
So show them incredibly successful people. You think that's really inspirational, but actually, for many students that are suffering with, could that be me? I'm not very confident that puts them off. So we have to find that middle ground.
00:12:38:04 - 00:13:00:03
Rachel
I am I taught for a long time in Oldham, and I also found with my people that it was, role models from that area to that they felt like, well, I can't do that. They live in London. They've got there's this perception of access to these kinds of things. And I wonder with that what kind of role families have to play, in this conversation.
00:13:00:09 - 00:13:23:13
Jess
Is so important, because, you know, young people ultimately spend most of their time at home. I think it's around sort of 80% of their time awake, you know, before the age of 16 is spent at home. So we try and change everything in the classroom, by having those, you know, conversations with young people about the opportunities, which is, which is really, really important.
00:13:23:13 - 00:13:32:18
Jess
But we also need to be communicating that those opportunities and countering those stereotypes with the families of the young people as well.
00:13:32:22 - 00:13:44:15
Rachel
You definitely hear that around options evening, the conversation with parents like, oh, no, I don't think that's for for my young person. And yeah, that's because they've grown up with those same stereotypes.
00:13:44:18 - 00:14:08:11
Jess
I think actually what's interesting about computing is that it's not just the parents and carers, but it's the wider family. And I think there's needs to be more research in this. But one of the things we found through interviews are interviews with the parents and carers and what actually a lot of the advice around computing was coming from older siblings rather than the parents and carers themselves.
00:14:08:13 - 00:14:46:05
Jess
And I guess it goes back to that sort of relatable, relatable role model. There were comments from, the girls that we interviewed saying, you know, my my older brother says that it would be really good for my future job, that I should do computer science at GCSE or my older brother helps me with this and I think as well, some times the parents and carers that we interviewed feel quite removed from tech and the workplace of today, and the jobs that their children might go into in the future.
00:14:46:10 - 00:15:12:20
Becky
They can't provide advice because they don't properly understand it, so they're more likely to suggest traditional routes, which they understand more and they have gone for themselves. Maybe most parents obviously want children, their own children, to be happy, but followed by that, they'll want to be financially stable. I haven't, so they probably come like hand in hand and tech in the public perception is not seen as like a really well-paid role in many cultures.
00:15:12:20 - 00:15:34:20
Becky
So, like when you go to a wedding and they say, what do you do? And you say, I'm a teacher, a doctor, a nurse or an engineer. People say, oh, that's brilliant. Say, I'm a software developer. People say, oh, like, good for you. I guess I don't understand what that means. And they don't understand that it's actually could be an incredible job role for their students with so many prospects.
00:15:34:20 - 00:15:41:22
Becky
So to we encourage and help and support parents to understand that they're not going to suggest it to the children.
00:15:41:24 - 00:15:42:24
Jess
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:42:24 - 00:16:04:07
Rachel
And I think there's also a perception from parents about the level of a team or older siblings about the level of attainment that you need to, you know, this idea that you have to be clever, that you were talking about earlier to be a computer scientist. But we know from research adds that, girls often have a lower self-efficacy, than boys in computing.
00:16:04:07 - 00:16:27:05
Rachel
So a lower belief that they can succeed at tasks and achieve their their goals. However, their attainment in computing is usually, I think, from the start, needed. Jess, it was equal to well or actually better than a know you can cut data in different ways, but but girls definitely are achieving at least the same as, if not better than boys.
00:16:27:07 - 00:16:37:15
Rachel
So what role do teachers have in, conversation? You know, we talked about parents, but teachers beliefs, about what? What, girls can achieve.
00:16:37:17 - 00:17:05:02
Jess
The role of the teacher is so empower. And, so as part of the scary study, we found which ironic name given we're talking about confidence and the scary. But, yeah, as part of the scary study, we found that, teachers support. Yes. And build a feeling of belonging in the classroom were predict as of confidence in coding.
00:17:05:04 - 00:17:37:16
Jess
And also, we found they were almost, twice as likely to be doing GCSE computer science if they felt they had teacher support. Yeah. And interestingly, this association, it was for all young people. So not just girls. And I think that's really important. So good classroom practice. Inclusive classroom practice is good for every child student if you want them to carry on in computing.
00:17:37:20 - 00:17:59:01
Rachel
Sadly we're not talking about pink textbooks. And like a different substitute for girls schools. But know I was training to be a teacher and we had to do different things for different groups in the classroom. We know from the research and the work we've done in so culturally relevant pedagogy that these are strategies that work for everyone, and everyone deserves to find a place.
00:17:59:01 - 00:18:30:21
Rachel
And we know, you know, it's not just girls that struggle to see their role in computing. It is lots of different subsections of young people. So it's really important that we support them all. Becky, just thinking about that, I know, you've done a lot of work in this space. How do you think teacher professional development plays into this conversation that we know that, the strategies and also impossible to teachers have the knowledge and are trained to to do those things and to have those conversations.
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Becky
So I try and kind of hang out now for over.
00:18:33:06 - 00:18:35:15
Jess
20 years ago, I.
00:18:35:15 - 00:18:50:13
Becky
Trained and my coding training because coding was just sort of starting in primary school. Thanks. I trained as a primary teacher was like an afternoon. Yeah. And obviously then I'm expected to be able to teach from reception to year six and coding.
00:18:50:15 - 00:18:52:13
Rachel
But not enough. And one day.
00:18:52:15 - 00:19:17:14
Becky
Like so obviously a lot of it then had to be self-taught. But the issue was with tech, which is a good thing, is that it moves so quickly. So training comes out a date so quickly, and brand new devices come in that then we need to train on. And teachers that are fantastic teachers have excellent pedagogy, are brilliant just to give them a strange new device and they get scared of it and it will go in the cupboard or they won't use it.
00:19:17:16 - 00:19:35:17
Becky
So initial teacher training and integrating tech across the curriculum too. So if I go to a secondary school and say, I want to deliver CPD to help your teachers understand the kinds of futures you're preparing the children for, they'll say, oh, here's the computer in a science department, the first thing I always say is no, no, no.
00:19:35:19 - 00:19:57:22
Becky
Can we do a whole staff training? Because I have a tech for maths lesson, a tech for history lesson, a tech for geography lesson, and the leadership always. Sorry, right? Yes. Because all of those students that are passionate about geography and teachers, all of those teachers that are passionate about, the vast majority of jobs those children will go into will be tech enabled or B tech roles.
00:19:58:02 - 00:20:22:05
Becky
So we need to get away from it. Just be in the Stem department and it being everyone involved in this. So when we talk about teacher training, the biggest point for me when you relate it to computing is that it needs to not be just the computing in every now and then add on science. It needs to be everybody that has this training, and also that we don't turn to teachers and say, you're not teaching them the right thing.
00:20:22:07 - 00:20:41:01
Becky
They are so overwhelmed and overloaded with the curriculum and everything. They've got to remember whatever we provide for them needs to be relevant to them. Easy to use. You've thought about what of the barriers that would be in their way. So yes, it's so important. But there's a couple of nuances I don't see happening as often, especially in the world of computing and tech.
00:20:41:05 - 00:21:22:13
Jess
Yes, go wider. Okay. Yeah. Committee Ukri Becky, we interviewed senior leaders and can computing teachers in us in our study. And, we found that schools that did particularly well in terms of uptake of girls at GCSE tended to have a lot of senior leadership support for computing and in particular around professional development, in computing. So where there is that whole school, but particularly where there is a supportive senior leadership interest, it has an impact on on the diversity of uptake at GCSE.
00:21:22:15 - 00:21:24:14
Jess
Absolutely. It seems to yeah, I.
00:21:24:14 - 00:21:46:17
Rachel
Think it's so interesting because, I was an assistant head teacher and I was a there weren't many of us that were computer science teachers that had become assistant head teachers. And I do wonder about the impact that having a lack of subject representation at that level has. And, people used to walk into my classroom like, oh, computing is not for me.
00:21:46:19 - 00:22:02:20
Rachel
And like if other teachers are saying that, then how do we get, the young people to see it as a place for them? And especially like a maths teacher, say how computer science has it for me. I was like, so actually teaching binary this is this is all happening.
00:22:02:22 - 00:22:26:02
Becky
There isn't a subject I've challenged people that isn't a subject you can name that isn't very closely related to a tech. Well, I had a whole group tech. They were like, what about this? What about that? What about music? There are so many relationships between those subjects, and not only the use of tech, but very clear career pathways that the students can go on to in each one of those areas.
00:22:26:04 - 00:22:54:21
Becky
I often speak to teachers because we have like a tech for sport lesson and I'm like, PE and computing are so closely related. There's not only the use of technology MP and I've seen some amazing examples of teachers doing this. So, using apps on the iPad for physical movement. So there's that use of technology MP but also there's the plethora of different jobs, what showing students that are particularly passionate about PE, which they can go into in technology.
00:22:55:02 - 00:23:14:06
Becky
So for example, if they want to be. So when you ask year 5 or 6, it's happens a lot. What do you want to be when you're older? The vast majority of them would say professional footballers miss and every primary teacher will be nodding at this. They'll have definitely 20 plus professional footballers, in their classes of, 60 to 90.
00:23:14:10 - 00:23:31:11
Becky
I'll say a very small percentage of those students will make it into professional sports man or sports woman. But actually what we can show them is you don't need to give up on that dream. And if you love sport, you love football or soccer or you love gymnastics, and you're not going to actually compete and be paid in that sport.
00:23:31:17 - 00:23:50:18
Becky
There are so many tech roles which you can do working behind the scenes, training the athlete, helping them with health and physiotherapy, working on goal line technology, working on Hawkeye. There's so many cool things and when you show children this, you see the attention. You see them set up like, hold on, she's talking about me and the thing I love.
00:23:50:18 - 00:24:05:17
Becky
And she's also talking about computing. It's a really powerful thing that I've witnessed a number of times. And it comes back to speak to the children themselves first, find out their hobbies and passions, share them, how that links into technology. And it really does make a difference.
00:24:05:19 - 00:24:30:18
Rachel
It's so interesting hearing about, the cross-curricular links. And I know that, when I was teaching with, with the young people that I was working with, they were so interested in the AI influence in, sport, particularly in football or soccer for our international colleagues. And just thinking internationally about this, we I know that we're focusing very much on England in this conversation.
00:24:30:23 - 00:24:54:12
Rachel
It's where your research has been done and where you predominantly work. But we know that this is an international problem. The data suggests that there are some countries that are getting it right, but I'm not 100% confident in those numbers and in those figures. I'd be super interested to hear from any listeners in the comments if there are, if anyone is getting it really right in their country, please leave us a comment.
00:24:54:12 - 00:25:16:00
Rachel
We'd love to speak to you. And we did film another podcast episode a few months back with my wonderful colleagues that are based in India and Kenya, and hearing more about their context and what it meant for them when they were echoing the same issues. But yeah, it is an interesting one to go back in and give a listen to.
00:25:16:02 - 00:25:35:06
Rachel
We know this work is really important. Both of your careers are dedicated to. It is something I'm super passionate about. We know that gender balance teams perform really well. We see that across sectors, not just in tech. But what do you think are the benefits to making these changes that we've discussed today?
00:25:35:10 - 00:25:55:09
Becky
We interviewed some young students recently. Girls, and asked them that question, which really nice. But why should more women work in tech? Why should we have more? It was for a public perception campaign we were doing with IBM. And one of the girls said, and I love this quote. She was like, everybody should work in tech because everybody uses tech.
00:25:55:11 - 00:26:15:14
Becky
That's exactly what she said it was. So she was only nine. It was really like and she was obviously saying that, well, and if only men or only a certain type of person designs all the technology we use, it's only going to work as well. Like there's always gender bias that people have, or unconscious bias of all sorts that people have.
00:26:15:14 - 00:26:34:11
Becky
And when we're talking about especially artificial intelligence and technology like that, and the nuances and design of AI is going to stop making maybe judgments on people if we don't have a diverse range of people designing and implementing that tech, then we are going to come across issues. So she said it better than me.
00:26:34:15 - 00:27:01:06
Jess
And I think there's something around the sort of the social justice of all young people having the digital skills for their future. Yes. When the teachers that we interviewed, said that some young people don't even know how to construct an email. Yeah. And so when we're talking about digital skills, yes, there's coding, programing and so on, but there's also a whole bunch of other digital skills.
00:27:01:08 - 00:27:25:21
Jess
The ethical use of AI, for example, these things that all young people need to know about in order to be able to go into the workforce, and to just be, you know, digitally, digitally literate citizens. But at the moment, effectively, we've got almost half the workforce is missing. Yeah. And that's something that needs to change. Yeah.
00:27:26:01 - 00:27:49:18
Rachel
And is is about access isn't it. Fair access for everyone. And we think a lot about participation. We just want to get these girls over the line. Please study GCSE computer science or the equivalent like please go on to the next level. But is that enough? I don't think we should draw the line that we don't want girls to just participate in computer science.
00:27:49:20 - 00:28:09:11
Rachel
We want to see girls thriving in computer science and seeing their role in IT. Support in the next generation being these near role models, how do we move this conversation from being about just numbers of girls doing GCSE to them? Really thriving, and shining in these roles?
00:28:09:13 - 00:28:33:00
Becky
So that point is a key reason why at tech she can the resources that we deliver to the younger students are called tech. We can. Yes. And the reason is, is because we say they're female friendly but deliver to all. And the background of where that came from is when they first formed as a child. So and they'd done their research and found out that there was very few women wanting to go into the tech world that many of the.
00:28:33:00 - 00:28:33:09
Jess
Large.
00:28:33:14 - 00:28:53:04
Becky
Professional financial firms, they talked about teaching girls to code. They talked about, just teaching girls career aspirations. And when they approached me, I was teaching at a secondary school at the time, in the eighth most deprived area of the country, in Coventry, where I'm from. And they said, can we just do this for girls? And I remember saying, that doesn't feel right to me.
00:28:53:04 - 00:29:15:01
Becky
And they said, why? And I said, you need to come up to my year eight class and I need to show you why. And I asked all of the students what they want to be when they grow up. And none of them mentioned a future career in tech. Including the boys. None of them mentioned Stem, actually, in general, many of them didn't have one of those in work or they just weren't sure what they wanted to be.
00:29:15:03 - 00:29:41:22
Becky
Then I asked the boys quite an interesting question. I said, boys, what can the girls be when they grow up? And they said, quote, housewives, mums. Aren't most of them going to leave school anyway? So in order for yes, in order for women and girls to thrive in the workplace, male allies are just as important. So I want to both inspire the boys that we're teaching, but also show them how amazing the girls can be.
00:29:41:22 - 00:30:02:03
Becky
So it's about taking them all on that journey together, so that when we send girls out into this world of work, they're actually going into inclusive environments where men know how amazing they could be. They have equal respect. So that that to me, it's we can send them out into the workplace. But the workplace needs to be a welcoming place.
00:30:02:03 - 00:30:10:11
Becky
And if we teach the girls separately and always keep them separate until they go into the workplace, it's just not the way that I want to work. And I actually wanted to do it together.
00:30:10:17 - 00:30:29:11
Rachel
You know something? We've got to keep the boys, keep all young people in that conversation. And as we said earlier, that benefiting from from that to Jessie Jones's research about this, is there any research, particularly about this? Right. Getting young girls, well, all young people to thrive and it can be exciting setting.
00:30:29:13 - 00:30:58:23
Jess
So I think something to really think about is around sort of the digital making at home. One of our findings was that those young people that do digital make it in their own time, that it's like using creating apps or doing digital art or some some animation or something, creating a website, developing these skills that that was associated with an increased likelihood of taking GCSE computer science.
00:30:58:23 - 00:31:48:11
Jess
But at the same time, we know that access to digital making at home requires broadband, requires a quiet place, requires a laptop or computer, and not all young people have that. And so there's sort of inequity more broadly in terms of the spaces. And being able to do that kind of creation at home has long term implications. Thinking about, you know, extracurricular activities at school, but that ensuring that they're inclusive and they're not just sort of, you know, in a for a few privileged young people in a particular school which has lots of resource and multiple computing teachers, to ensure that there is sort of, of that broader access so that all young
00:31:48:11 - 00:31:49:16
Jess
people can thrive.
00:31:49:18 - 00:32:16:17
Rachel
I would be in a lot of trouble if I did not mention the Raspberry Pi Foundation's work to run K clubs in in England, and internationally, we see that the participation in K clubs is about 35, 40% female and that non-formal space, I really think is something about engaging girls in a non classroom setting. To make that choice to do some digital making and they're free.
00:32:16:17 - 00:32:39:15
Rachel
So if you are looking for something to signpost your young people to, do you go check out our capstone project site. We also run it in England and it's run internationally by brass, which is a computational thinking. But and that is about 5050. We're not seeing the same gender divide there at all. And I think that is because it comes via maths often.
00:32:39:17 - 00:32:41:05
Becky
Cross-curricular again. Yeah.
00:32:41:05 - 00:32:42:12
Jess
That's and yeah.
00:32:42:12 - 00:33:07:09
Rachel
And, and I think maybe the teacher as well like that expectation that all young people do that subject. So something that I need to have a place in. Yeah. You don't see those same, same perceptions and Great. So finally, to finish up, you guys have got so much experience in this area is an absolute honor to, get to talk to you both about this in this setting.
00:33:07:11 - 00:33:28:12
Rachel
But what I see happen often in these conversations is there's a lot of talking about the problem, but what are we actually going to do about it, and what advice would you give? You know, we have loads of teachers listening today. Senior leaders in school, maybe even some policy makers out there. What what practical tips would you give to take forward following this?
00:33:28:14 - 00:33:54:16
Becky
Just that there are a lot of fantastic free. Yes. Raspberry Pi, we have our own tech. She can. They're all free resources. And often people are quite that free with lesser quality. And it's not. It's just there's so many people out there that really want your students to go into all of these roles. We did an event last week and we had 240 girls, and one of the girls said, I didn't realize so many people cared about us.
00:33:54:18 - 00:34:14:08
Becky
There are so many people in industry that care about your students, and that they have all of these exciting roles, and they are reaching down to try and get to you as teachers, as school leaders, our job is to prepare children to be happy and successful in the future. That future is now more unknown than it ever has been because of advancements in tech.
00:34:14:08 - 00:34:34:03
Becky
So what you're preparing your year 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 for now, in terms of the world of work, is going to look very different when they're actually out in the world of work. So keep an eye on it. Engage with all these people that are trying to engage with schools, and put it across the curriculum and really do try and show back up computing.
00:34:34:04 - 00:34:40:03
Becky
So how important it is and how how relevant it is, no matter what the children want to do.
00:34:40:05 - 00:34:40:16
Meg
Great.
00:34:40:20 - 00:34:42:05
Rachel
Thank you Jess.
00:34:42:07 - 00:35:19:06
Jess
Yeah. So I would say and it doesn't matter whether you're a policymaker, a senior leader, a computing teacher or a teacher in another subject, do not underestimate your ability to change. And for the better, the opportunities for the young people, that either you work with directly or that you influence in some way. I mean, whether you're a classroom teacher, you can look at your classroom practice and, you know, finding ways of engaging with the parents and carers, there is so much you can do.
00:35:19:08 - 00:35:53:23
Jess
If you're a senior leader, advocate for your computing department. Look at it across the whole school. All the all young people have access to computing. How can you make afterschool clubs more equitable? How can you support your computing teachers to access that subject specific CPD roles for senior leaders and then policy makers? Think about what is the curriculum going to look like in the future?
00:35:53:23 - 00:36:14:08
Jess
Yeah. What do we need young people to know? And yes, skills for jobs, but also skills like digital skills for life for their, you know, for their futures. So I think there's a role for everyone. And we can't just leave it up to young people themselves to figure out.
00:36:14:08 - 00:36:36:09
Rachel
The last thing that we want to do is give teachers more work to do. We know that there is a workload crisis, but we know that supporting young people to access the jobs of tomorrow, be that a career in tech or a career using tech, is going to make a big difference in their lives. And we know that this is multifaceted.
00:36:36:09 - 00:36:39:07
Rachel
It's not just going to be A11.
00:36:39:09 - 00:36:39:22
Jess
Perfect.
00:36:39:22 - 00:36:55:13
Rachel
Solution. I wish that there was. I wish we could walk away from this conversation and be like, well, okay, I would do that. But this is a long term thing, isn't it? The studies that you've done just they're not short term that long term studies. But I do believe that we all have the power to make this change.
00:36:55:15 - 00:37:17:15
Rachel
And I do think that if there are some small things that people can take away from this conversation today, small changes that we can make, it will influence young people's decision making and the things that they believe that they can do in the future. This isn't just about girls. This is about all young people having fair access to computer science education and digital making.
00:37:17:17 - 00:37:22:20
Rachel
And I hope that some of the things that we've talked about today, you'll be able to take forward into your practice.
00:37:22:22 - 00:37:40:21
Meg
I hope you enjoyed that conversation so much. Food for thought. Please do let us know your thoughts on this topic. What strategies have you found effective in encouraging girls to engage with computing? How can digital learning tools and resources be designed to be more inclusive? Inspire ING for all students? You can get in touch with us on email Where podcast at.
00:37:40:21 - 00:38:06:21
Meg
Hello, welcome and Hello world CC is where to go to meet the new issue of the Hello World magazine. You can read the digital version there for free, and if you'd like a physical copy and are based in the UK, you can subscribe to have a pink copy delivered directly to your door for free to next week. In the final episode of this mini series, we'll be discussing the term digital natives, asking whether we should ditch the term and whether young people who grow up with technology around them are truly tech savvy.
00:38:06:23 - 00:38:11:07
Meg
Are they dependent on digital tools without understanding how they work? Bye!